June 2008

Mullah Abdul Salam Zaif was born in the in Panjwai-e Districtof Kandahar Province where he grew up in a family of religious scholars. Mullah Zaif continued his religious studies in Peshawar, Pakistan and fought in the

jihad against the Soviets. Later he was one of the founders of the Taliban movement. He held a variety of senior‐level posts in the Taliban and was their ambassador to Pakistan. He was detained by US forces and sent to Guantanamo Bay. He was eventually released and now lives in Kabul, where Kabul Direct recently interviewed him.

 

Kabul Direct: Recently some websites and newspapers published a letter from Jalaluddin Haqqani in which he called on his followers to hold elections to replace Mullah Omar. Do you think this letter was genuine? And could he be right, is there really such a rift occurring now inside the Taliban?

Mullah Zaif: The letter was first published by Payman Daily. Because Payman is widely known, people think that if it publishes something it has to be true. But Payman has an established bias against the Taliban. 

And I have firsthand experience with this paper. They wrote something about me which had no basis in fact. I read Paymen but I have not found it to be reliable based on my personal knowledge and experience of the Taliban. When the Taliban was in power in the 1990s, when I was a high‐ranking official, some of Ahmad Shah Masud’s people sent a letter to the Taliban defense minister praising me. They sent this letter so that it would appear that I was working with them. This had to have been part of a campaign to ruin my reputation as I never worked with Ahmad Shah Masud or any of his people.

I think this letter must also be part of a disinformation campaign to create dissent within the Taliban or to otherwise discredit it as I have heard nothing that would indicate that there is this level of dissent occurring. I believe that I am still in a position to hear this type of thing and I have heard nothing.

Kabul Direct: So assuming you are correct then, why is there no statement from Jalaluddin Haqqani or his spokesmen disclaiming it?

Mullah Zaif: The Haqqani people are probably not aware of it. If they were, I am certain they would have disclaimed it.

I did recently hear from someone in the media that President Karzai sent a letter to Jalaluddin Haqqani through tribal channels in which he encouraged him to consider coming to the negotiating table or to at least begin talks.

I was told that Jalaluddin Haqqani’s response was that entering such peace negotiations is not his decision to make. He is said to have told President Karzai that such negotiations will only happen when Mullah Omar signals that they should. This is the structure that the Taliban adheres to and I have no reason to think anything has since changed. I do think that when they hear of this letter they will issue a statement, a reaction to it.

Kabul Direct: The Payman letterhead said it was from the Taliban though from the Haqqani side.

Mullah Zaif: Yes, I saw that as well. Perhaps I should tell you a story about this type of document. Afghans who want to apply for political refuge in Western countries have to show documentation that they are under threat. For example, they might create a letter on “Taliban letterhead” that will show that they are indeed under threat. You see they need to prove to the foreign government that they fear for their life in Afghanistan. So letters from the Taliban are printed daily in Kabul for all sorts of purposes. Anyone can print a letter and claim it came from the Taliban. This is not something that is difficult to forge.

Kabul Direct: So you do think it is some kind of forgery. Now onto another issue, given your deep and personal knowledge of the Taliban how do you assess the strength of the movement at this point in time?

Mullah Zaif: The Taliban has resurged and it is stronger than ever. They stop traffic whenever they want on the highways and to date have burned some fifty trucks, trucks that were resupplying the international and NATO forces. This is the evidence that indicates that the Taliban has indeed grown strong again. We also see their strength in the number of clashes they have now with the security forces and the wide areas in which they occur.

I believe they pose a serious threat to the Karzai administration at this point, and not just in their usual strongholds. The Taliban is looked to by people who have been marginalized or frustrated by the government and foreign forces. These are the people who cooperate with the Taliban.  This is the base that enables them to grow stronger.

Kabul Direct: Are the neo‐Taliban a united entity that operates under a single unified command or is this new Taliban a bunch of small groups of militias that for various reasons are willing to take up arms against the government?

Mullah Zaif: I think that the Taliban are still united under one command and the senior most leader is still Mullah Omar. Islam requires that the Mujahedeen stay united under a single command. The neo‐Taliban have called for jihad claiming that every Muslim must fight the infidel occupiers. So I do think that the Taliban is united and its operations are being orchestrated and coordinated at the leadership level.

Of course I do not mean to suggest that the Taliban only has one person planning its military operations. In most of Afghanistan provinces, the Taliban have positioned not just governors but also district chiefs. The Taliban’s structure is coherent and decrees are issued at the top and carried out by the appropriate parties in the organization.

Kabul Direct: But the Taliban’s sayings and mottos themselves often suggest there might be some room for differences. For example, in the 1990s, the Taliban claimed that they would bring reform to Afghanistan, that they would combat the tyrants among the Mujahedin. Yet they called themselves Jihadists. Have you seen any changes or confusion in their strategy since you were in key player?

Mullah Zaif: Yes, I have noticed changes along the way. In the 1990s, the Taliban were fighting corruption. Back then this was one of Afghanistan’s most serious problems. The country was already on the brink of ruin after the Soviet war and the warlords were bringing causing even more catastrophe. Now the jihad the Taliban is waging is against the Americans.

Speaking of letter, I did hear of a letter from the Taliban recently. The Taliban were calling on in this letter the Mujahedeen who fought against the Soviets to come and join them to repel the Americans. This letter suggested to me that they are expanding their operations.

Kabul Direct: Do the Mujahedin elements will heed this call and actually join the Taliban at this late date?

Mullah Zaif: I cannot say, I do know, however, that many Mujahedin do support the Taliban. Many of the former Mujahedin and their commanders have already joined the Neo‐ Taliban.

Kabul Direct: What about the Mujahedin leaders. Do they too now support the Taliban?

Mullah Zaif: No, I do not think so. I have not heard yet that the Mujahedin leaders are joining the neo‐Taliban.

Kabul Direct: Some analysts think that the reason the Taliban was able to win the control it did in the 1990s was because it was for the most part unopposed. People supported them as the opposition to the Mujahedeen. So do you think it is wise for the Taliban to now try and bring the Mujahedin in to help them battle the government and international forces? How can this make sense?

Mullah Zaif: The Taliban will never put another leader in the position they put Mullah Omar. They will never allow such a development. So that means that those who join forces with the Taliban must accept this reality. They must accept that they will forever remain subordinate to Mullah Omar ‐ and to any other Taliban leader who might have a higher rank. The Mujahedeen will have to respect the movement’s command structure. They will not permit what the Mujahedeen allowed to happen, they will never allow such turf wars to take place. The results of the Mujahedin were clear as far as the Taliban is concerned. But now the Taliban is in a new phase.

From what I gather from their websites and from what I hear and see tells me that the Taliban are now the part of the global jihadists. In fact they do not even refer to them as the Taliban at this point. What they call themselves now is the Mujahedin fighting under the banner of the Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan.

Kabul Direct: The Taliban have called for Jihad against the legitimate Afghan government as well as the foreign forces. As an Islamic clergyman, as an expert on the Hanafi School of jurisprudence, do you think that the Taliban has the right to declare Jihad against the democratically‐elected government of Afghanistan? Can this be a just Jihad?

Mullah Zaif: The Taliban did not declare this Jihad recently. Rather, they declared it when the Americans were planning to attack Afghanistan in 2001.

The Shura (council) of Ulema (clerics), that was composed of some 700 clerics from across the nation convene in Kabul. After only five days of deliberations they concluded that the United States had not reason to attack the sovereign nation of Afghanistan and instead should respect the country’s independence. The Shura issued a statement asking the Americans to settle its issue with Afghanistan through peaceful channels. Only when the US forces actually started attacking the country did the council of clerics call for Jihad.

Kabul Direct: When the Taliban formed, it was believed that their system of law would be based on the Hanafi school of Islamic Jurisprudence. But then it later appeared that their real influences were to be found among Deobandi scholars. What is their ideology at this point in time? What is their political thinking?

Mullah Zaif: The Taliban have not drafted a constitution. Afghan constitutions were the ones that made reference to the Hanafi School as their basis of law.

Kabul Direct: I did not mean to ask you about the traditional role of the Hanafi School of jurisprudence Afghanistan. What I meant to ask was what you thought the Taliban’s political ideology was at this point in time. Global Jihadist groups such as Al Qaida are thought to be under the influence of the Salafi scholars. The Taliban is said to have close ties to Al Qaeda. Does this mean that the Taliban, like their close affiliates in Al Qaeda are also influenced by Salafi scholars?

Mullah Zaif: The Taliban are still adherents of Hanafi school. Even practically I would describe them as more Hanafi than Salafi at this point too.

Kabul Direct: How do they deal with their Salafi partners then?

Mullah Zaif: In Afghanistan, there were never very many Salafis. They were always very few in number – primarily in Kunar but also some other provinces. Moreover, even under the reign of the Taliban, theywere never coordinated.

That said, in Kandahar province, the Salafis were growing stronger before the Taliban. But then when the Taliban seized control of this province, they removed the Salafi elements there. The Taliban never allowed either the Salafis or any other sects to gain influence under their dominion. So while the Taliban may have received support from the Salafis, the Salafis were not able to get any further under the Taliban.

Kabul Direct: What about this new phase of the Taliban, is there still the same level of opposition to the idea of sects?

Mullah Zaif: Well, from what I can tell, from my knowledge of the high‐ranking Taliban officials I knew well, the ones leading the insurgency, the Taliban’s position towards the Salafis has not fundamentally changed.

Kabul Direct: Moving on to another issue, recently the Afghan government publicly criticized the peace deal that the Pakistani government made with the Pakistan Taliban elements that operate out of the FATA areas in Pakistan. Is it true that Pakistan is essentially now supporting the Taliban? Is this the upshot of their having such dealings with this group?

Mullah Zaif: I believe Pakistan has the right to deal with Taliban as they wish. They have accepted the Taliban’s righteousness and have dealt with them accordingly. As far as Afghanistan criticizing Pakistan’s actions, all I can say is that I think that the Pakistan government was right in making peace with this group. The Taliban constitutes the majority in this area and this reality cannot be wished away or denied.

I don’t know what the Afghanistan government wants. Are they trying to kill everyone in the movement? Is  this why they refuse to negotiate with such opposition groups? Perhaps they should worry about solving Afghanistan’s domestic problems before they try and solve Pakistan’s.

Kabul Direct: Well the Taliban that is based in FATA areas of Pakistan that negotiates this peace deal with Islamabad is the same one that is waging Jihad against the Afghan government on the Afghanistan side of the border. So speaking as an Afghan citizen, was Pakistan’s deal really in the national interest of your country and do you take pride as an Afghan in the current situation?

Mullah Zaif: I believe that until the foreign forces leave the Taliban will continue to wage their Jihad. This is the key to the whole problem.

Kabul Direct: You wondered earlier why the Afghan government won’t negotiate with its armed foes and opponents. Yet, President Karzai himself as well as other high Afghan officials have in fact announced that they are ready to begin peace talks whenever he receives word from Mullah Omar about a time and place such peace talks to begin.

Mullah Zaif: Well the problem resides neither with President Karzai or Mullah Omar. The Taliban claim that it is the foreign forces that won’t allow peace negotiations to begin. When Karzai announces that he wants such peace negotiations to happen, the US does something to oppose such talks. Peace talks cannot begin until there is some trust. Right now neither side trusts each other.

Kabul Direct: So how do we solve the problems of Afghanistan?

Mullah Zaif: I think the foreign forces should give Afghans the chance to decide what they want, what type of government and so forth. We cannot solve Afghanistan’s problems through force and power.

 

Copyright 2008 Kabul Center for Strategic Studies.  All rights Reserved.

 

 Insurgency Inside the Insurgency: Interview with Abdul Salam Zaif